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{
"room_id": "6n6mWME2MCvexJH6H",
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{
"_id": "slack-C01JDSBDVDK-1615445182-007400",
"t": "uj",
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"msg": "martin",
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{
"_id": "slack-C01JDSBDVDK-1615414169-007000",
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"msg": "That's good Clare",
"rid": "6n6mWME2MCvexJH6H",
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{
"_id": "slack-C01JDSBDVDK-1615412840-006800",
"ts": {
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"msg": "Thanks Clare - will pop it in before I forget and it dissolves into Slack\u2026",
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"msg": "I've done a one pager summarising all the ONS problems which I hope can be included in the March booklet. We'll need to publish the papers it references though. @anna.rayner @paul.cuddon @jengler @klymenko.t @martin 'https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DuC79T2ynR9h2FhbMs8AVNJ4bm8bnWV2R8Ik5o819G8/edit?usp=sharing",
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"msg": "Edmund, you\u2019re completely right.\nI doubt there\u2019s any possibility of the general public understanding this stuff.\nIt would be hard enough even if they wanted to understand it.\nBut the hard facts are that they\u2019re committed to their Comforting Lies & will block anything which contradicts them.\nThus my target is more informed people. Even then, I\u2019m most unlikely to succeed\nWho ever dreamed this up knows that. ",
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"msg": "@yeadon_m you know too much immunology, so find it hard understand why the public doesn\u2019t. There is one piece of actually useful sociology my wife taught me, which is the theory of \u201csocial representations\u201d which are little narratives told between people to convince themselves they understand something (usually scientific) which in fact they don\u2019t. The \u201csocial representation\u201d has elements of truth but leaves critical factors out. It\u2019s a narrative \u201cdumbed down\u201d so far as to be wrong. In the early days of MRI a BBC report explained MRI as \u201cmaking pictures with strong magnetic fields and radio\u201d. Magnets and radios are commonplace, so the journalist\u2019s tale works. But it isn\u2019t true; the static fields don\u2019t have to be strong, and (true) radio isn\u2019t used at all.\nSimilarly with vaccines and antibodies. The \u201csocial representation\u201d is the ancient \u201cJenner\u201d narrative now culturally absorbed at primary school level. Vaccines encourage you to make antibodies against disease. Antibodies are the body\u2019s \u201cmagic armour\u201d made by the immune system. That\u2019s why vaccines are harmless and wholly beneficial. They protect you and your children. We even understand that antibodies are matching \u201clock and key\u201d to antigens made by nasty germs. That\u2019s how the immune system works, doesn\u2019t it ? T-cells and NK cells and macrophages - never heard of them. Eyes glaze over. If you want to make inroads into this, you have to accept that public understanding is a vague shadow at least a century out of date. It\u2019s \u201cmagical thinking\u201d. You have to say No No No it\u2019s more complicated than that, and develop a line that\u2019s little more complicated than the \u201cJenner\u201d narrative but adds to it by explaining how T-cells work, the innate immune response etc.\nI took first year Cell Biology in 1975 at Cambridge, but remained largely ignorant of immunology until 2020 when I had to learn fast. Now consider how Joe Public without even GCSE Biology (or even Neil Ferguson) thinks about it, and develop that \u201csocial representation\u201d so it\u2019s a bit closer to the truth. That\u2019s an urgent piece of messaging that HART could actually attempt.",
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"msg": "Sorry only just seen this. Please avoid embarrassment by referring to hydroxychloroquine and not \u201chydrochloroquine\u201d which doesn\u2019t exist. Inhaled budesonide now has its own trial, mentioned elsewhere. @yeadon_m\u2019s point about antibodies is important if we are informing the public. But the biggest concern I have with this is that it doesn\u2019t take much notice of disease stage. Covid-19 is clinically peculiar because it can be anything from a sniffle to fatal. (Successful) clinicians have systematised this by distinguishing viral, early pulmonary, late pulmonary and critical stages etc. The media hysteria is all about late stages with people on oxygen, ventilators etc. The colossal missing policy element is arresting development of another coronavirus cold into critical illness. Which can be done by GPs. Prophylaxis is something else again - avoiding getting the infection in the first place. All the supplements (D3, C, zinc, Quercetin) certainly have a role here as in the \u201coutpatient\u201d stages. In fact quercetin is another lacuna; it\u2019s available from nutraceutical outlets and widely recommended as the \u201cpoor man\u2019s hydroxychloroquine\u201d because it is a zinc ionophore. Lots of zinc may be a waste of time if it\u2019s simply excreted; it\u2019s intracellular zinc that is needed. Prophylaxis has been shown with ivermectin in an Egyptian RCT of household contacts so the number of index cases plus number of onward infections are both known, so the (prophylaxed) R0 can be numerically estimated. It was 0.3.",
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"msg": "Ros,\nThis is very good. A few suggestions:\n1. emphasise that whether acceptable or remarkable, we UNDERSTAND the risk / benefit associated with use of the drugs you list. That\u2019s not yet true with novel technology vaccines.\n2. There have been some clinical trials investigating the effect, if any, of intravenous \n\u2018convalescent plasma\u2019 (ie. antibodies). I\u2019m not sure that the expected benefits were obtained. This doesn\u2019t surprise me. I\u2019m constantly amazed that even experts, not qualified in immunology, believe that immunity is mostly or wholly conferred by circulating antibodies. It isn\u2019t & we\u2019ve known for a long time that it isn't. Consider this: most of the time, in bacterial infections, the invading organisms are outside our cells because they\u2019re large & easily viewed by light microscopy. Antibodies, once secreted from the B cells which make them, are also large & highly charged species, generally remain outside cells, too. The pathogen & antibodies readily meet-up. But viruses are so small that they\u2019re invisible to light microscopy. Their whole way of replicating requires viruses to enter cells. They\u2019re only briefly outside cells when we first get infected & when infected cells die, spilling the next wave of virus particles. Antibodies & pathogen have very little opportunity to interact. By contrast, we\u2019ve a powerful defence system in cytotoxic T lymphocytes (\u2018T cells\u2019j. They\u2019re perfectly attuned to detecting virus-infected cells & then kill them. \nI find it so frustrating that people bang on about antibodies & nowadays about so-called \u2018immune escape\u2019. The very idea is intrinsically unlikely. If it happened, as a generality, our immune systems would be far less effective than they are!\nT-Cell mediated immunity has such diversity that immune escape by a relatively slowly mutating virus is utter nonsense & was shown to be so in a superb recent paper.\nAnyway, went on too long, sorry :neutral_face: \nMike \n\n[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.27.433180v1.full.pdf](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.27.433180v1.full.pdf)",
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"msg": "@rosjones is inhaled Budesonide worth a mention - there is a great website from US doctor Dr Richard Bartlett who has claimed astonishing success with this cheap and available drug. There are published studies that back up his claims. This website should give you enough references and info for a short paragraph https://budesonideworks.com/",
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"msg": "Good stuff Clare. Do you want to make any edits to my document on these lines?",
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"msg": "I wrote something on Zero COVID too but with a quite different angle in an attempt to introduce heroes and villains to the narrative. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19ZDnUQarwLjKkkliLVzz_qrs_rG8iOLwdL2Ba-9vUHA/edit?usp=sharing",
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"msg": "I absolutely agree. I've sent the Vitamin D stuff as a start to our local hospital covid manager (spoke to her and she said she thought there was some problem with Vit D but couldn't remember what! Anyway, now she's said she'll do her best! I mentioned Ivermectin too just to sweaten her up.",
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"msg": "When we come back to doing these this could be a good reference for us https://swprs.org/",
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"msg": "I am not sure what's wrong with my entry there as i can see it. Sorry about that!\n\nhere is what i wrote:\nnear equatorial countries whith no seasonal variations in climate have lower to non-existent variation of mortality.\u00a0\nFig 2 here:\nhttps://www.rgare.com/knowledge-center/media/articles/seasonality-of-mortality\u00a0\nalso this, i've posted full paper in reply on slack:\nhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10219491/",
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"msg": "That is fascinating. Thanks Tanya. I can't see your comment in the doc though https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YU7t4cNAT_REEYZXZo-LZRxF3NjCRen655YN_a1akms/edit?usp=sharing\n\nThis paper on east west transmission of influenza viruses could fit with the pattern of seeing Finland not seeing peak deaths until Feb and Brazil being later than Mexico https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X08010402",
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"msg": "I see i mis-typed. Sorry. PROMPT is what I meant. Treatment within the viral/infectious disease, before major pulmonary inflammation has set in. Yes, the most catholic argument (advocated dual anti-virals chosen from HCQ, IVM and favipiravir, plus a \u201cneutraceutical bundle\u201d basically VitD VitC Zinc and quercetin as outlined above) is based on Peter McCullough\u2019s team here https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/10.31083/j.rcm.2020.04.264",
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"msg": "The huge missing element (as Ros must know from me by now) is simply to treat the disease. The burden must shift away from hospital care back to GPs. The outpatient treatment protocols ALREADY IN OPERATION in many places simply have to be introduced and applied aggressively. By GPs. The spectre lof hospital overwhelm then evaporates. The immune support provided by Vit D is by now a no-brainer, but my family is also taking Zinc, Vit C and Quercetin (a known zinc ionophore) on a daily basis. All fully available from \u201cnutraceutical\u201d outlets. The FLCCC group has published on this and there are other related prophylaxis protocols. Ivermectin prophylaxis is going to be a big deal I am convinced and the only reason for not advocating it from HART right now is that the write-ups are still in progress. But PROMPOT treatment by GPs of all covid-9 cases is I am convinced the missing link.",
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"msg": "My strategy would be (briefly): self-isolation of the sick (symptomatic); shielding of the vulnerable during the main phase; separate hospital facilities for the infectious as far as possible; improve NHS surge capacity; ensure all good treatments are in play. That's about it (unless I've missed something) - the rest of the socially debilitating and harmful-to-health NPIs that were introduced in 2020 need to be consigned to the dustbin. Don't know what others think?",
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"msg": "Thanks Ros. I'd say this document tries to do a lot. It needs references/links to support its various claims. Stylistically it needs polishing I think. In terms of content, I found myself disagreeing with quite a lot - it seems very keen on continuing restrictions given HART's position (as I understand it) that the pandemic is over and we need to get back to normal and stop normalising drastic NPIs, especially a year later.",
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"msg": "Well spotted - thanks, Ros.",
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